The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

And the first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, and I call the first question, from Delyth Jewell.

Fracking Policy

Delyth Jewell AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's policy on fracking? OAQ54464

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. This Government has consistently made clear our opposition to fracking, as set out in our programme for government. Following overwhelming public support for the consultation proposals, I made a policy statement last December, setting out fracking will not be supported in Wales and there should be no new petroleum licensing.

Delyth Jewell AC: I'm glad to hear that, Minister, as I had heard there were concerns amongst some environmentalist groups that the Welsh Government may have been decreasing its opposition due to the announcement that Ineos will open a factory in Wales. Of course, Ineos's main interest in mainland Britain is shale extraction. The investment by Ineosin Bridgend for building its new 4x4 is, of course, very welcome, and I hope people will now feel reassured by your answer that it will not affect the Welsh Government's fracking policy. Now, fracking isn't the only mode of petroleum extraction that's causing concern, however. Recently, an application was made to pursue seismic testing in Cardigan bay, to find locations for potential drilling. That licence was suspended, but that does not prevent similar applications being made in the future. So, could the Minister please give us an update on measures being undertaken by your Government to impose an effective ban on seismic testing, just as you've done with fracking?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. So, I do hope that will reassure anybody who's had any concerns. I don't think I've personally been contacted by anybody who's brought that issue to my attention. I was obviously aware of the application around seismic testing and did have conversations with UK Government counterparts to put forward our views on that.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, according to the United States Energy Information Administration, nearly two thirds of reduction in energy-related carbon dioxide emissions in the past decade in the US can be attributed to fracking. The United Nations inter-governmental panel on climate change notes that fracking has increased and diversified the gas supply, allowing for a more extensive switching of power and heat production from coal to gas. They also affirm that this is an important reason for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States. Does the Minister agree, in light of the above, with these organisations that fracking results in fewer carbon emissions?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm not aware of the article or the piece of research that the Member refers to. I just reiterate that we've maintained a very robust and unequivocal opposition to fracking. You'll be aware of the consultation that we had last year, and, certainly, public opinion was that switching to energy alternatives that emit far less pollution is both achievable and preferable, and also saw no future in beginning a new fossil fuel industry. All my efforts, and those of my colleagues, are looking at what we can do to bring forward more renewable energy.

David Rees AC: Minister, it's very welcome to hear that the Welsh Government continues its robust opposition to fracking, particularly the implications that that has for our environment as much as anything else. But, on fracking, there's also deep borehole testing, and some of this work is being done on NRW land as well. Can you, therefore, have discussions with your colleague in the Cabinet who is in charge of planning to ensure that deep borehole applications are also considered as an outlier to fracking, and, as such, whether councils should actually be considering that or not? And will you give guidance to councils in relation to that, because we could end up with a lot of communities being very anxious, very nervous as a consequence of an application, on which we will know nothing will happen because of the robust statement that you've just made?

Lesley Griffiths AC: David Rees makes a very important point. All petroleum exploration and extraction boreholes require a petroleum licence and planning consents from the local planning authority. Both regimes are devolved, wholly subject to Welsh policy. So, as I've said, our policy objective is to avoid the continued extraction and consumption of fossil fuels, and that includes shale gas extracted via fracking. I know when I was the planning Minister, we certainly provided advice and guidance to local authorities, but I'm very happy to speak to my colleague Julie James, who's in her seat, to ensure that if we need to update or we need to refresh, we can do that.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

The Management of Dams

Russell George AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the management of dams in mid Wales? OAQ54459

Lesley Griffiths AC: Natural Resources Wales is responsible for managing reservoirs in mid Wales, with the Clywedog and Vyrnwy reservoirs falling within their north operational area. I am aware of concerns surrounding the management of these reservoirs, and my officials are working with the Environment Agency and NRW to resolve any issues.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Minister, and I am pleased to hear that answer. There is real concern, and there's been ongoing concern for some time now, in regard to the operating rules and agreements of both dams, because water has been topping over both dams, that both of us have mentioned, and this has caused great flooding in large parts of my constituency. So, I would be grateful if we could expedite a review of the operating rules and agreement, and if you could liaise with your officials, Natural Resources Wales, and with the Environment Agency and Severn Trent Water, to bring about that review as soon as possible, because I think we've got to the point now where landowners are feeling absolutely exasperated.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I am aware that, I think, you attended the last Clywedog and Vyrnwy liaison group meeting, which obviously my officials attended also. And there's the tripartite agreement between NRW, the Environment Agency and Hafren Dyfrdwy. I know they've already implemented some interim measures, to alter the timings of water releases, for instance, and that's based on downstream indicators. But, clearly, this is work that needs to continue. I think it's really important that the residents are aware of what's going on as well. So, I have asked my officials to attend a further meeting on the matter, along with NRW. I think it would be good if you could attend also; if you haven't had an invitation, then certainly I will make sure that you do have an invitation. And, obviously, I'll be updated following that meeting, to decide on what further action we need to take, if any.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The first question from the Conservative spokesperson, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. This morning, Minister, I met Hope Rescue centre. After meeting them, it highlighted the importance around puppy farming and the regulations around puppy farming. And many of us are aware, obviously, of the BBC programme that shamed, I would suggest, Wales's image around the rest of the UK, and indeed the world, when we saw such images coming out. The Welsh Government have consulted on Lucy's law, and the proposals within Lucy's law that will go some way to tackling some of the abuses in the puppy breeding industry. I understand that the Welsh Government are in the process of considering those consultations. Can you give us an indication today when you might well be coming forward with some proposals? Because we cannot go on periodically seeing such horrendous images on our tv screens, and hearing first-hand accounts, such as I heard this morning, that do shame Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I think we were all absolutely horrified by the documentary that was aired last week. And you're quite right, we did consult early this year in relation to Lucy's law. I had—and I do not know if Members will have seen the written statement that I've issued around this issue—a meeting, the next day, with the Chief Veterinary Officer for Wales, to see what we could do immediately. I think there are several things we can do. I think we need to make sure that local authorities are aware of—. Obviously, they're the enforcement group that need to go to these puppy farms to ensure that the licence requirements are being upheld. So, I've asked the chief veterinary officer to meet with all 22 local authorities. I've personally written to the chief executives to ask them if they can put forward a representative to attend the meeting with the chief veterinary officer. I've asked the animal welfare group to look at the regulations, alongside the consultation responses in relation to Lucy's law.
The chief veterinary officer has also asked the Royal Veterinary College to look at the programme, because, obviously, there are implications around veterinary surgeons also. And I think it's up to individuals as well, if they come across one of these farms, if they go to buy a puppy—. Because the need for puppies seems to be increasing. People seem to be acquiring, and wanting to acquire, puppies much more than usual. So, I think we need to understand why that is also. There's a piece of work that will be going on, but I absolutely agree with you—it was horrific.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for the agreement on the images; I think any sane person would say the same, Minister. And I offer no criticism of the actions you've taken to date, because they seem to be actions that should be taken: engaging with people who will be involved in the enforcement—local authorities—the profession, i.e. veterinary surgeons, and obviously the puppy-breeding sector itself. I think what people are anxious to understand, given the level of consultation that's gone on around Lucy's law and other proposals that the Government have brought forward, is what timeline the Government is working to to actually implement safeguards and enforcement measures that will bring an end to these horrendous practices? Regrettably, there will always be rogues out there who will always try and circumnavigate the regulations, but, clearly, this is on an industrial scale—this is going on—and, in fact, in the presentation I received this morning, the puppy farm industry sector was calibrated to be about £12 million in Wales alone, which is a huge sum of money, and, when you put that money forward, people will try and beat the regulations. So, what we need to try and understand is that, instead of in six months' time watching the same images or new images on tv or through social media, we have taken action and put the remedial work in place to make sure that we can stamp these practices out. So, on those measures you mentioned to me in you first question, have you a timeline of action in place that will say, 'In two months, in four months, in six months we will be in a far better place'?

Lesley Griffiths AC: In relation to the actions I've taken following the documentary, obviously that is urgent, and we will do that over the next month or so. Certainly, the group will look at the breeding regulations for me very quickly—I would hope by the end of the year.
In relation to the Lucy's law consultation, I didn't want to get any unintended consequences from that, but, again, I've asked the CVO to look at when we can bring that in much quicker than we'd anticipated due to all the other ongoing work we've got, particularly in relation to Brexit. I am aware that the CVO's office is particularly stretched. So, in relation to a timeline for Lucy's law, I think I will have to write to the Member, but I would hope certainly by the spring.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you for that indicative timeline, and I look forward to receiving the letter, Minister. One thing that is crystal clear is, sadly, enforcement agencies—and I talk of local authorities here—have been hollowed out over many years, especially in trading standards departments, and whilst we might wish to put regulation in place and laws in place to stamp out this practice, unless they're enforced on the ground, they will be meaningless. In the meeting that the chief veterinary officer will be having with local authorities that you indicated in your first response to me, will the capacity issue be addressed? And will there be an overall assessment of what local authorities can achieve, because I've had it highlighted to me where there is good practice in certain local authorities, and in other local authorities there is no practice at all? And surely what we need is a unified approach so we can get the gold standard across the 22 local authorities that we have here in Wales. So, can you confirm that that will be on the agenda when the chief veterinary officer meets local authority representatives and, above all, the Welsh Government will undertake a piece of work to understand what is required on the enforcement side to make sure that these enforcement rules can be implemented in local authority areas?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Certainly, the idea of meeting with all 22 local authorities was to find out what they perceive as barriers, for instance, to them being able to enforce. Capacity could be an issue. Obviously, local authorities have had to take some very difficult decisions over the last decade of austerity, but I think we do need to understand what the issues are, and then, I think, from that meeting, we will then decide on what action needs to be taken. So, I'm not saying we would have a review straight away, but, depending on what comes out of that meeting—. I can't remember the date of the meeting, but I think it's within the next month, certainly, that the CVO will be meeting all 22 local authorities, because I want to hear from them the difficulties—if there are difficulties—and what we don't want is a postcode lottery. So, as you say, it's absolutely right that we get some parity across those 22 local authorities.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Minister, back in 2013, when the former rural affairs Minister, Alun Davies, maxed out on the modulation, if you remember, taking the maximum 15 per cent out of pillar 1 into pillar 2, it was touted at the time as something that would lead to, in his words, 'transformational change'. Has it?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think we have seen some change. Is it transformational? I don't think we've perhaps seen the change that we would want in some areas. I don't think you can generalise and say sweepingly—. It's something I'm actually considering whether we take forward, because, post Brexit, I'll certainly be in a position to look at that. But I think it's really important that we work with the farming unions. I know they were unhappy with it back in 2013. It's something that is constantly raised with me and I think we need to look at it in the whole.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: So, five years later, you're not sure; you don't know. Maybe that suggests that somebody needs to do a piece of work looking at the use of that particular money, because farmers were, of course, told, at the time, that the money taken out from their direct payments would actually come back to them through the rural development programme. The reality, of course, is very different, because we've seen how the programme budget reduced significantly in 2016, from £956 million, as a result of amending the rate of domestic co-financing provided by the Welsh Government, to what is now a total budget of £828 million for the programme period, of course, which ends next year.
Now, worse still, as of the end of August this year, you've only spent 41 per cent of the total RDP budget. So, having picked the pockets of Welsh farmers on the premise that that money will be maximised in relation to economic development in rural Wales, can you assure everyone that there will be no further erosion of RDP funds by further reductions of the co-financing rate? And do you acknowledge that there is now, at this late stage, a very real risk that your Government will fail to spend the budget effectively and in full?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Well, I certainly don't want to see that and that's the discussion I've had with officials. I met with the head of Rural Payments Wales last week just to discuss this very issue. As you know, it's a seven-year programme. The proposals for the remaining activity under the current RDP have been agreed, last December. The proposals will require a modification to the programme. So, they are obviously subject to European Commission approval. But the message I give out is that we must max this money as much as possible, and I certainly don't want that to be a failure.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: We must max this out as much as possible—that doesn't sound like a categoric assurance to me that that money will be used in full and effectively. And, of course, the worry is that if the money is late being allocated then, of course, as is very often in other spheres, it's going to be a case of that money being pushed out of the door in blind panic at the end just in order to make sure that the money's spent.
Now, I've written today to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, asking that they look at the Welsh Government's handling, and the effectiveness, of RDP funding, especially, of course, in light of comments by National Farmers Union Cymru that their members tell them that, and I quote:
'Opportunities to access RDP funds have been limited for farming businesses, application windows have been sporadic and often under-resourced with applicants turned away. The application and claim process has been complex and costly, with many farmers having to resort to paying advisers and consultants to assist.'
Now these implementation issues, of course, are all firmly under your Government's control, and your 'Sustainable Farming and our Land' proposals are based on quite similar adviser-led approaches. So, will you, as they ask, and as I'm now asking you today, to do—will you urgently commission an independent review of the rural development programme in Wales so that we can learn lessons and have confidence in any new schemes that the Government wish to pursue?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think it's not the right time to have a review. As you know, we are out to consultation at the moment on 'Sustainable Farming and our Land' and I think people's views around the RDP are something that they can put forward in that consultation, particularly, as you say, when the scheme that we are proposing will use advisers in the way you suggest.

Question 3, Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I do apologise, Llywydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Gathering my thoughts—.

Farming Land

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 3. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to ensure the conservation of farming land in Wales? OAQ54489

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. 'Sustainable Farming and our Land' sets out my proposals for the future of farming in Wales. My ambition is to keep farmers on the land in sustainable farms, producing both food and environmental benefits in a system that enhances the well-being of farmers, communities and the people of Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Denbighshire County Council's scrutiny committee's report into the Llantysilio mountain fire raises a number of questions directed to a number of different agencies. I'm wondering if you could tell me what lessons the Welsh Government has taken from this whole episode and, particularly given that a number of the recommendations in their report refer to Natural Resources Wales, what advice you've given to NRW on their role in working withlandowners and other agencies to avoid similar situations in the future.

Lesley Griffiths AC: So, at present I have not had the advice that I've asked for following that report, but, once I do, I will write to the Member or I will share the advice that I give to NRW, whichever is more appropriate.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

Angela Burns AC: The Summit to Sea project in mid Wales has been accused of reflecting the partners' focus on the environment and paying much less attention to the cultural, linguistic, social and economic aspects of sustainable development, which, of course, is fundamental to the development of the whole community. Minister, what can you do to ensure that, when projects like this are set up in the future, better community consultation is entered into before any project is allowed off the ground?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I absolutely agree that there are some projects that would, on refection, be better for having that community focus. I'm not aware specifically of the one that you raised with me. I think all those things that you say fall into what I look for when I'm going out to consultation—. So, I've made it very clear that, in Wales, we do have linguistic differences to other countries, so it's very important—. So, 'Sustainable Farming and our Land', for instance, which I just mentioned in my original answer to Llyr Huws Gruffydd—I made that very clear, that all those aspects of sustainable development need to come together. So, I think most things that we do in the community are always more collaborative if you have that initial contact with the community that, sadly, isn't always there.

Question 4, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Will the First—? Will the Minister make a statement—? I was promoting you there.

Farming Support

Nick Ramsay AC: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's policies for supporting farming? OAQ54478

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Welsh Government provides substantial assistance to help farm businesses improve their financial and environmental performance. Through 'Sustainable Farming and our Land', the Welsh Government is developing a comprehensive modern agricultural policy, which will encourage resilience, sustainability and prosperity.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I think Llyr Gruffydd has pretty much maxed out all the subjects to question you on in farming in the last couple of questions. He's even written to me as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. But with regard to the 'Sustainable Farming and our Land' consultation that Llyr mentioned, that's obviously well under way—been under way for some time. I've had extensive discussions with the National Farmers Union and the Farmers Union of Wales, particularly over the summer—I'm sure you have as well—at the variety of agricultural shows around Wales. I wonder if you could update us on where we are at the moment with that consultation. The farmers I saw have welcomed some of the changes that have been taken on board by the Welsh Government. I think the term 'land managers'—'farmers' is being used more now in the document, which I know is to their liking, and says more about how they're dealing with their particular land management issues. Are you planning any other significant changes? And if you could just give us a general idea of where we are with that consultation and if there's anything else you would like to see from the farming community in Wales in terms of positive suggestions for this consultation, so we can get the best policy in the long run that we can all unite behind.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Certainly, in my discussions over the summer at the Royal Welsh Show and other agricultural shows I attended, it was very clear that the farming unions, in particular, and individual farmers, had welcomed the change in tone perhaps from 'Brexit and our land' to 'Sustainable Farming and our Land'. It is out to consultation—we have until 30 October—so, I'm very grateful to have the opportunity to remind everyone to please bring forward your responses to that consultation. I understand, the last time I asked, which was probably about three days ago, we'd had over 2,000 responses to date. Last year, we had 12,000, so you can see I would really like to get around that number again—particularly individual responses; I'm very interested in people's specific views. So, it's too early, obviously, to say what I expect to come out of that consultation, but what I do want to reiterate is it's a meaningful consultation and I really do want to hear from everybody.

The Welsh Food Industry

Jenny Rathbone AC: 5. How is the climate emergency, declared in April 2019, reshaping Welsh Government plans for the Welsh food industry? OAQ54492

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Sustainability is an important consideration in our proposals for a new strategic plan for the food and drink industry, which is under consultation at the current time, closing on 15 October. We will publish a summary of responses, and sustainability will feature in the finalised plan.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Well, it will be interesting to see the responses. I think last week we learnt that the state of nature report that was published last week is highlighting a terrifying loss of insects, including 60 per cent of Welsh butterflies and seven species of Welsh bees. Now, the overuse of pesticides, rather than allowing nature to thrive alongside man's and woman's use of the land, is clearly a cause for concern. So, two questions: what plans does the Welsh Government have to reduce the use of pesticides that put at risk the pollination of fruit, vegetables and flowers? And, in the context of the threat of a 'no deal' Brexit, which really raises serious issues about our food security, how does the Government plan to use public procurement to buy more Welsh produce, which would, as a by-product, obviously reduce food miles?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, in relation to reducing pesticides, that is something that we've been encouraging for some significant time, and working with farmers and other land managers in relation to that. I think the state of nature report, which we're currently considering, was quite stark in parts.Obviously, we have our own report, our own state of natural resources report, so I think we're ahead of the game, but I think it did make very stark reading in parts.
In relation to a 'no deal' Brexit, obviously we continue to say there has to be a deal, and those discussions are ongoing. In relation to public procurement, I have actually said that I do think that is an opportunity, post Brexit, if we are looking for opportunities. Obviously, public sector organisations are responsible for making decisions in relation to the food and drink that is available in their establishments. We've got the National Procurement Service, where we have food and drink framework agreements, but I think there will be more opportunities post Brexit, if we do indeed leave the European Union, for more public procurement. I mentioned that we were out to consultation on the food and drink action plan at the moment. We have the current action plan and that absolutely recognises, and that's now into its sixth year of being—it absolutely recognises the importance of the local food supply chain to the food industry in Wales, encompassing local retail, hospitality, food service, direct retail and, of course, our public services too.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, obviously people are conscious that the way they eat could have an effect on climate change and the climate change emergency that the Government here and in other parts of the UK have declared. What we do know is that the red meat sector here in Wales is predominantly a grass-based production cycle, which is actually positive for the environment. Have you had any requests from Hybu Cig Cymru about securing funding so that the positivity around what Welsh beef and lamb are to the environment, in the way that they're grass based in the diet they use, can be promoted to the consumer, rather than maybe some of the more intensive systems coming from other parts of the globe that do have a detrimental impact on our carbon footprint?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I haven't had a specific request for funding from HCC just in relation to that, but you'll be aware we gave HCC—I think it was over £2 million to help in promoting our red meat sector, and, in fact, HCC have been out in Japan as part of the trade mission doing just that. But I think you make a very important point, and I'm questioned a lot about red meat and people's eating habits, and I think it's about a balance. But what I would say to people is, if they want to eat sustainably, the best thing to do is to support our local farmers and food producers.

The Draft National Development Framework 2020-40

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Housing and Local Government regarding energy matters that are included in the draft National Development Framework 2020-2040? OAQ54482

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch. The Minister for Housing and Local Government and I have taken a fully collaborative approach on energy matters in the national development framework. I have engaged with her throughout its development, and continue to engage as we consider the responses to the current consultation.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Given the climate emergency, we must increase the amount of electricity we produce from renewable sources. We also need public support for that. The draft framework identifies a significant area of Anglesey that should be considered as a priority area for the production of solar and wind energy. The research is based on erecting turbines of up to 250m. If we think about the tallest things on Anglesey, the Marquess’s column is only 106m, the old Anglesey Aluminum chimney is only 122m, the highest land in Anglesey, Holyhead Mountain on Holy Island, is only 220m. Given the low-lying nature of Anglesey, it’s totally obvious that suggesting turbines of this scale, or anywhere near that scale, is totally inappropriate. Yes, there is scope to consider small-scale wind that is appropriate to the landscape, but does the Minister realise that all that’s happened here, if truth be told, is that fears have been raised and people have been angered? Will she give an assurance that the Welsh Government will withdraw that threat? But also, with so much scope for Anglesey to produce renewable energy at sea, both tide and wind, which isn’t even mentioned in the framework, does the Minister see that that is best way of producing more renewable energy and getting public support for that?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think you raise a couple of important points, which I will come to in a moment. But I think, to start with, I should reiterate we're currently out to consultation, so I think, if people do have those fears, put in their responses and obviously they will be looked atby the Minister for Housing and Local Government as part of the consultation responses.
Last week, I was in Dublin, at the ocean energy conference. Clearly, there is huge scope for innovation. I saw some presentations of energy production that you could only dream about; you would not think it's possible. So, I think that the opportunities around tidal and marine energy are huge and, clearly, Ynys Môn is absolutely at the fore in relation to that. So, taking the public with you, keeping the public confidence is very important, but everybody has to accept that, if you want electricity, we have to look at new ways of delivering it.

Russell George AC: Minister, the current proposals within the energy section of the NDF don't include any details about how the energy produced would then be connected to the national grid. I wonder what representations you have made to the Minister for Housing and Local Government on this, and other bodies yourself, in terms of speaking to the national grid yourself as well. If the consultation results clearly demonstrate that there is not support for the proposals in the energy section within the NDF, will you amend or scrap those proposals?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I've obviously had discussions with the national grid, and I know that the Minister for Housing and Local Government has herself met with the national grid. Capacity for the grid is clearly an issue and we urge the UK Government to ensure that the appropriate infrastructure is there. Obviously, we're out to consultation on the NDF at the current time, and the Minister will look at all responses and then bring forward the plan in due course.

Natural Resources Wales

Mandy Jones AC: 7. Will the Minister make a statement on the performance of Natural Resources Wales? OAQ54476

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. NRW's dedicated staff perform a range of challenging roles, protecting us and our environment 24 hours a day. This was evident again during recent floods. I have every confidence in their ability to manage our natural resources and strongly believe they will achieve the best outcomes for Wales, now and in the future.

Mandy Jones AC: Thank you, Minister. I don't share your confidence, I'm sorry. I'm in regular contact with anglers on the River Dee, whose catchment area supplies water to 3 million people in north Wales and north-west England. These anglers are our eyes and ears on the rivers, and NRW need them. I'm deeply concerned that they describe a night-and-day difference between their interaction with the former environment agency and NRW. They are increasingly frustrated and feel that NRW has simply lost interest in their reports of pollution, in providing any help to clear fallen trees, and in the health and habitat of fish and other species in the rivers. What can you say to them to start to rebuild trust and confidence in NRW?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'm very sorry that you don't share my view of NRW staff. In relation to the specific issue that you raise with me, I will certainly have a discussion with the chair and chief exec at my regular monthly meetings. That's certainly not the impression that I'm given. We've had some significant pollution incidents in our rivers this year, and I've been reassured by the way that NRW have answered those calls to go and investigate them. So, I'm very concerned to hear what you're saying, but I am sorry that you don't share my view of NRW staff.

Air Pollution along the A470

Dawn Bowden AC: 8. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's policy on tackling air pollution along the A470? OAQ54495

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Tackling air pollution to support health, biodiversity and environmental improvements on the A470 and across Wales remains a key priority for the Welsh Government. Speed cameras have been installed on the A470 to enforce 50 mph speed limits, and we will continue to develop additional measures to reduce nitrogen dioxide levels.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I'm clearly not a scientist or a traffic engineer, so I'm guided by experts and their knowledge in this and what they've told us about harmful levels and the effect of pollution in those communities along the A470. But understandably, since the speed cameras have gone live, there has been more general discussion around the issue, particularly from people travelling down from the Valleys in places like Merthyr Tydfil. The statement from the economy Minister earlier in the week gave a very good explanation for that, and I think that was helpful. Those kinds of communications to people generally about the need for us to be monitoring speed and emissions are really helpful. But just as importantly, can we do more to help manage the source of pollution, or the pollution problem itself, by, for example, not adding further traffic pressures to specific sections of the A470 due to major developments, and stepping up efforts to keep existing services, like the DWP offices, in our Valleys towns, and not siting them in areas that are already suffering unacceptable levels of pollution and bringing more traffic to those areas when we could disperse that by bringing better jobs closer to home in the Valleys?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much for that question. I too have one of these speed limits in my own constituency, so I'm very well aware—I've had exactly the same. The cameras have just gone live, and as you say, there's much more talk about them. I think the monitoring report that the Minister for Economy and Transport published on 7 October did confirm that, since the introduction of the 50 mph speed limit in June 2018, levels on the A470 between Upper Boat and the Bridge Street interchange have reduced, but of course they still remain above the EU directive limit of 40 μg/cu m. So it's too early to make any firm conclusions, and further monitoring is obviously being undertaken, but we were very reassured that across all of the five sites, we have seen a reduction. I think that now speed cameras are in place, that will encourage people again to adhere to those speed limits, which perhaps hasn't been the case over the last year, since the limits were first introduced.
Unfortunately, due to bad weather, the signs—because I thought it was very important we communicated much more clearly why we were putting those speed limits in place. In the other four sites, they've all had the signage installed now, but unfortunately on the A470 they haven't been able to do that. But we are looking—certainly the Minister's officials are looking to do that as a matter of urgency. [Interruption.] That's good to hear. It's so that people understand why we're doing it, because I think initially there was some confusion over the need for that 50 mph zone. I think the point that you make around thinking about where to site jobs, particularly public sector jobs, shows why it has to be across government, why it's not just the responsibility of the Minister for economy, or myself as Minister with responsibility for the environment. It has to be cross-government, and that's why all Ministers have to look at their policies to make sure we're doing all that we can around air pollution.

David Melding AC: Minister, I think the people that use or live near the A470 between Upper Boat and Pontypridd will want to know when we're going to move from monitoring, which I welcome, to actual enforcement of the EU directive on nitrogen dioxide. When will we have that assurance that we're achieving this really important reduction in air pollution?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I mentioned there will be obviously further monitoring on the back of the report that the Minister for Economy and Transport published last week. We are expecting levels of compliance to improve significantly, as I said, following the installation of the average speed cameras and the comprehensive signing layout. It is something that we need to continue to work on. What we want to do is achieve compliance in the shortest time possible, so that's why we, for instance, are having continued development and stakeholder engagement on the precautionary retained measures, and in the case of the A470, the measures are a clean air zone, air quality barriers and improved car parking.

Energy Projects

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 9. Will the Minister make a statement on whether Welsh Government will bring forward measures to support local authorities and local communities to take a greater stake in energy projects? OAQ54460

Lesley Griffiths AC: We already support communities and local authorities to develop renewable energy projects and encourage collaboration to increase the benefits from involvement in energy production. I have established a working group to develop guidance on shared ownership of energy developments, which will help us understand what further action may be needed.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Minister for that response, and I recognise the work that is going on, particularly as a Labour and Co-operative Member, around that community ownership. But back in 2017, the UK Energy Research Centre had a look across local authorities throughout the UK, Wales included, and they found that their engagement in energy management was limited, and they had limited capacity, in fact, to get involved in strategic energy management. This is despite great individual projects, including the one in Caerau in my constituency, the geothermal mine water project. But the report went on to make 10 quite radical far-reaching recommendations, including the idea of a local authority statutory duty to develop and implement area-wide, low-carbon plans, mandatory local planning for low-carbon heat and a central energy efficiency fund dedicated to investment in localised energy provision and services. There were 10 quite radical proposals, and we can’t do them all overnight, but I’m really interested in whether she’s had time to look at those and other proposals to see how we can use the power of local authorities and their expertise and might, with some devolution of funding as well to go with it—because that was one of the recommendations—to transform local energy and put power literally in the hands of local people, through co-operative measures, but also through local authorities stepping up to the mark.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Firstly, I’m very pleased that you support the Caerau project—it did come about after some very hard work, I think, by Bridgend County Borough Council, but also the support from our Smart Living programme, which secured a role for Bridgend as a demonstrator in the Catapult energy planning pilot. And, obviously, we supported them, as a Government, to get to that stage. As you say, the report made several recommendations. They absolutely called for the direction that we’ve set out in ‘Prosperity for All: A Low Carbon Wales’. I think the role of local authorities in energy, which was lost after privatisation—I think it’s going to be absolutely key to the future of our energy system. So, we have done a great deal to support local authorities. We’ve brought forward new energy efficiency and generation projects. We’ve also highlighted the very important role that they have to play in low-carbon areas. In relation to the recommendations, we’ve brought forward a variety of actions to support the recommendations. So, for instance, one of them was the introduction of the statutory duty, as you mentioned, to develop and implement area-wide, low-carbon plans over a set timetable. It wasn’t in the final report, but we looked at that and we’ve started carrying out energy planning, for instance, and modelling to ensure specific opportunities and constraints are considered within the context of an ever-evolving energy system.

Angela Burns AC: You mentioned earlier the Celtic sea alliance collaboration that you went and signed, which is very welcome. My question, very simply is: this commitment, which will hopefully develop more sustainable energy projects within the Celtic sea—and I understand specifically floating windfarms—what provisions are there within this collaboration to ensure that local communities and local authorities are also involved in the development of this, as well as at a national, country level?

Lesley Griffiths AC: As you mentioned, I signed the Celtic sea alliance and I met with colleagues from that alliance last week in Dublin. It was, obviously, a preliminary meeting. Officials will now work very closely with them to ensure we get every benefit we can from that alliance. But clearly, local authorities have a huge role to play here—specific local authorities—and we will work very closely with them as we mature that alliance.

Replanting Trees in the Afan Valley

David Rees AC: 10. Diolch, Llywydd. Will the Minister provide an update on plans to replant trees in the Afan valley following tree felling in the area? OAQ54499

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Natural Resources Wales are working diligently to continue felling phytophthora ramorum-infected trees in the Afan valley. They are replanting this area with a more diverse mixture of conifer and broadleaf tree species, and restoring open habitats to these upland areas. This will achieve a more varied, biodiverse and resilient structure.

David Rees AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. I think it’s important that we understand what plans we have. If we could have a timeline for those works, it would be interesting. Because at the beginning of the decade we saw the deforestation because of the disease. We’ve seen also damage being done to the forestation because of windfarms being built in the Afan valley. The consequences of those are loss of tourism in walking and cycling in the area, and we’re trying to attract that back in. We’re now seeing more tree felling in the area, as a consequence of NRW’s decision to chop more trees down—again impacting upon the tourism offer. We need that offer because it does evolve and develop the economy of those areas. So, a timeline of the plans to replant, and the schedule of where they’re going to be doing it, so that we can understand how we can build upon that local economy would be helpful. If you can get NRW to give us that, it would be nice.

Lesley Griffiths AC: As I said, the felling that’s been undertaken by NRW is not normal commercial harvesting or timber extraction; it is essential work to control the spread of P. ramorum. I can give you an update. Obviously, replanting is under way, as you know, and to date, a total of 745 hectares have been felled, of which 720 hectares have been restocked between 2011 and 2019 in the Afan valley. So, what I will do is I will ask NRW if they are able to provide you with a timeline and schedule as to exactly where they will be restocking, so that you have that information.You make a very important point about tourism, and I do appreciate that forests are inherently part of people's lives as a place to live and work or relax and exercise, so I think it's really important. And I know that NRW are beginning to look at increasing their engagement with local communities and businesses, and encouraging people to share their ideas, views and input on the future of their local forest.

Finally, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. It may be helpful if you were to share the timetable with regional Members too on the point that David Rees just raised.
I'm sure you'll recall, arising from a previous question, I asked about the possibility of Natural Resources Wales and schools working together in order to plant some saplings and trees, so that our children can learn about science, nature, the history of Wales and the environment around them of course. It’s perfect preparation for the new curriculum. At the time, you weren't sure whether NRW's work with schools related specifically to tree planting and you said that you would speak to the education Minister on that point. Has there been any progress made in this regard?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I'd be very happy to share that information with regional Members, if NRW are happy to do so.
I can't remember if I've had the specific discussion with the education Minister, but I've certainly had that discussion with NRW, and it's something they are very keen to look at and said they would take forward.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

The next item is questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government, and the first question comes from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Funding Allocations

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on the funding allocation to Anglesey County Council for 2020-21? OAQ54481

Julie James AC: Yes. I intend to announce the provisional local government settlement on 26 November, a week after the planned Welsh Government draft budget. This will provide details of the core funding for councils for 2020-21. Alongside the settlement, I will publish early indications of specific grants for the coming financial year.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. First of all, will the Minister join me in congratulating Isle of Anglesey County Council on being judged the second best in Wales in a new study? The Plaid Cymru leader, Llinos Medi, and her team deserve all praise, as well as the previous chief executive, Gwyn Jones, and his team. And may I wish his successor, Annwen Morgan, well as she starts on her work? But, that success has come in the face of serious financial challenges. The council had to make cuts of about £2.5 million this year, bringing the total cuts to about £25 million. And the only way that they managed to balance the books this year was with an increase in council tax of almost 10 per cent, as with many other councils. But that can't be an option for the next year. There’s nowhere left to cut, other than education and social care, and with the significant improvement in children’s services and the increased pressure on adult services, we can't put those services for the most vulnerable in jeopardy.
With inflation and demand for services, the council needs an additional £6 million next year just to remain in the same place. An increase in council tax of 5 per cent, which is still too much, would bring in £2 million, but on top of that there will need to be £4 million in addition—not a flat budget, not a freeze, not saving them from further cuts, not specific grants, but additional funding in the core budget. Does the Minister realise that that’s the situation that we're facing? Does she realise that councils' preventative work is saving money for other services, such as health service, and there’s nowhere left to cut on Anglesey? We need a promise and we need certainty that there will be a change.

Julie James AC: Yes, I've some sympathy with what the Member is saying about the situation that local authorities find themselves in across Wales. I just want to start off by saying that I'm very happy to join him in congratulating Ynys Môn. Llinos has done an amazing job there. She's a very inspirational young woman, the sort of person we should be attracting into politics in greater numbers. She's been very lovely to work with on the innovative housing programme, and they've done some splendid work, so I'm extremely happy to join with you in saying that. Congratulations to her and to her team, both the previous and the incoming.
In terms of the overarching pressure, Anglesey, as you know, was one of the people who were on the funding floor last time. They received the additional funding that we had, just to make sure that no council went down below 0.2 per cent, I think it was. We did that because we didn't want people to have huge fluctuations in funding in the teeth of austerity. This is the ninth year of austerity. We make no pretence that any local authority in Wales is doing anything other than making horrible choices about much-needed programmes. I've said this before: we are not cutting 'nice to have' things here.These are to-the-bone cuts, so I absolutely acknowledge that.
We've been working really hard with the Welsh Local Government Association to understand across the piece exactly what we're looking at. I've been working very hard with my colleague the Minister for finance to make sure that we have the best possible settlement, given where we are. I won't repeat all of where we are at the moment, but we have promises of some consequentials, but they are just promises at the moment. We've not yet seen a budget, votes in the House of Commons or anything else. We're obviously in highly volatile times, but we are going ahead and planning as much as we can for the future. We've had a good relationship with the WLGA, a very good meeting with them in both the partnership council and the finance sub-group, an open and transparent conversation about where we are with the funding and where we will be going forward. So, I can't say anything more than that at the moment; we are working very hard to do that.
The other thing I would say—and I know that local government is very interested in this—we are working very hard across the Government to get the specific grants in place as fast as we can, and to make sure that there are no inadvertent cuts in budgets elsewhere as a result of movements across the Government. So, it's a quite complex piece of work, but we hope to present them with an as certain as possible and as early as possible indication of what they'll get, so that they're in the best possible place to plan for the future. But I accept what you are saying: we are absolutely in a situation where people are making really difficult choices about services going forward.

Mark Isherwood AC: The Welsh Government tells us that its local government funding formula is heavily influenced by deprivation indicators. Anglesey is one of five local authorities where 30 per cent or more of workers are paid less than the voluntary living wage, and prosperity levels per head in Anglesey are the lowest in Wales at just under half of those in Cardiff. Yet, this financial year, Cardiff had a 0.9 per cent uplift, because you indicate Anglesey was in the group with the biggest cuts alongside four others, including Conwy and Flintshire. How will you ensure that a better measurement of those deprivation indicators will not put Anglesey and other affected councils in a similar position again?

Julie James AC: The distribution sub-group of the partnership council works very hard on the indicators across the piece. We have a constant review group working very hard on making sure that the indicators are as they are. The local government family is itself responsible for this, and Anglesey, as many other councils, have seats on both the financial and the distribution sub-group. The leader of Anglesey, who I was just mentioning now, comes to the partnership council meetings; I meet with her very frequently. Anglesey, last year, suffered from a range of less-favourable movements in indicators, such as population projections, secondary school pupil numbers, primary free school meals and children in out-of-work families, and those indicators fluctuate. So, obviously, the distribution works differently according to a range of indicators. I've had this conversation with Members many times; we offer all the time that a local authority who thinks that the measures are not right should come forward and put its suggested adjustments into the distribution sub-group formula, and we work through what that would mean for the local authority family overall. That offer is always on the table, as it is now.

The Number of Councils in Wales

Mark Reckless AC: 2. Will the Minister confirm the financial savings which have been forgone as a result of the Welsh Government's decision to abandon proposals to reduce the number of councils in Wales? OAQ54494

Julie James AC: There is no evidence that large councils are more effective or efficient than small councils. Our local government Bill will empower councils, reform and strengthen local democracy, create conditions for improved delivery of local services, and provide a robust framework for authorities to work on a regional basis where there are advantages in them doing so.

Mark Reckless AC: The Minister's response seems significantly different from those I recall from her predecessors on similar subjects, but their speeches about suggestions that bigger is better in general are not ones that have led to councils, or councillors at least, wanting to merge. I just wonder, is Welsh Government not able to offer an estimate or some analysis or something to assist in what are the fixed costs of running a council, given that we have a number of really very small councils with significantly high council taxes?

Julie James AC: That's just not how it works. What we believe in is that democracy should be as close to the people as humanly possible, for the decisions to be made as close to the people as is possible. I'm very surprised, given your background, Mark Reckless, that you don't concur with me that that kind of subsidiarity is what we should be looking for in local democracy. So, what we say is that one size certainly does not fit all; it doesn't fit all in any arrangement across Wales. Local authorities work hard to deliver services across a range of different mechanisms and different sizes, and, as I say, there is no evidence at all from anywhere that says that one size of a local authority is always more effective and more efficient than any other size. What we are doing is working very closely with the WLGA and local government leaders, through the local government sub-group of the partnership council, to develop a mechanism to support regional working and collaboration where that's appropriate, to reduce complexity for the authorities delivering different kinds of regional working arrangements, and to ensure that the decisions are made as close to the local people as is possible for effective and efficient democracy.

Mike Hedges AC: If you believe that larger organisations in Wales, such as Betsi Cadwaladr, Natural Resources Wales and the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust are the types of organisations that we think work best, then wholesale merger has its attractions.
Will the Minister confirm that the costs of reorganising ICT systems, employment and grading terms being equalised, staff movement, changing signs—and I could go on, but I feel like the Deputy Presiding Officer wouldn't let me—would be more expensive than any predicted never mind actual savings, and that in the last reorganisation, where there were mergers in places like Swansea, the costs of merger equated to approximately 5 per cent of the revenue budget?

Julie James AC: Well, it's a national sport, really, in local government to argue about the costs or savings associated with any reorganisation. What is clear is that if you do a mass reorganisation, those authorities become inward looking as people look to see that their jobs and services are protected. We do not need inward-looking services. We need outward-looking, collaborative, efficient services. So, we agree with the WLGA that working collaboratively together in the way I outlined is the most effective. And as I already said, and Mike Hedges knows from our long association, I don't agree that bigger is always better.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Given that the local government reorganisation in Wales has been firmly kicked into the long grass, Minister, can you advise what action you're taking to encourage and accelerate collaboration between existing local authorities in service provision and back-office function to generate financial savings, please?

Julie James AC: Yes. So, the forthcoming Bill has a range of arrangements in it for collaborative joint working. It will have a device called a corporate joint committee that will allow a legal entity to be formed between local authorities who wish to work regionally together. There will be four mandatory areas on the face of the Bill as it's introduced, Deputy Presiding Officer, although, obviously, we are in the Senedd's hands then as to where the Bill goes after that through its committee processes and so on.
Local authorities already deliver a range of important services in collaboration and one size does not fit all. So, there's a regulatory collaboration in the south-west of Wales, for example, that doesn't exist elsewhere. There are other arrangements, numerous and varied. The WLGA has been working really hard, assisted by Derek Vaughan who was previously an MEP for Wales, to come to a really good piece of work as an analysis of how that works, and we will be going forward with them in partnership in helping them make those arrangements.
What I would say is that the Bill also includes a whole series of powers for local authorities to voluntarily merge, for example, should they wish to, and to change their voting system and arrangements. But, they are voluntary. So, if two local authorities come together and think that they would be more effective and efficient working together, there is a mechanism by which they could do that, but we are not forcing them down that road because that is not the direction of travel that we think is most effective.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

I now call the spokespeople to question the Minister, and the first this afternoon is Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood AC: Last month, you issued a written statement saying that you were aware of a number of high-rise buildings constructed within the last 10 to 15 years that have significant defects. Now, I've received correspondence concerning buildings that fall into this category and it's appalling to read stories of young families trapped in unsuitable flats that they can't sell because nobody has taken responsibility for rectifying those defects, to ensure that those properties can then be sold on by families wishing to move on. Minister, what are you going to do to help families in this situation that will help them now?

Julie James AC: We have a range of things that we're doing. A number of the questions that are coming up in this session are around what we're doing about building safety and regulation. But we are in a difficulty where some of the private sector landlords have not been able to step forward or, actually, in one really very difficult situation in my own constituency where a range of people have gone bankrupt one after the other and left people in a very parlous situation. We're in extensive correspondence and meetings with the local authority there to see what can be done to alleviate some of the difficulties that you've expressed. We don't have that many in Wales that I'm aware of, but where we do have the problem, it is a serious problem. So, we are looking to see what we can do to assist people with help to stay, for example, or helping them if they get into difficulty with mortgage payments and so on. But it's a very, very difficult problem if somebody goes into what's colloquially called 'negative equity' as a result of the repairs that are necessary.
We are helping people access advice services, so that they can take action against any professional people who provided them with advice that was inaccurate or misleading, which has been the case for some people. But it is a very difficult problem, so I have no easy solution to offer those families, I'm afraid.

Leanne Wood AC: If there are small numbers of people involved, perhaps, Minister, you'd be prepared to meet with some of the people who've been affected by this, because it is something that's impacting severely on—

Julie James AC: Just to say on that, actually—I should say that my colleague Vaughan Gething, in his Assembly Member capacity, is bringing some people to meet with me for exactly that purpose very shortly.

Leanne Wood AC: Okay, thank you very much. Minister, I think one thing that could happen is that there could be a change in planning law, to ensure that, especially the big developers who've profited from these frauds—and I use that word deliberately—can have their previous records taken into account as material considerations within the planning system. You've been on record as saying that some of these new developments will be the slums of the future. Now, whether you've been referring to the lack of public services to support those developments, or to the poor quality of those developments themselves, I don't think it really matters, because the conclusion that you've reached is one that I agree with.
One of the explanations is that, since the financial crash, smaller firms have disappeared, leaving larger firms dominating the market and making excess profit from a lax planning system and from lax regulation. Do you agree with me that it's time for a windfall tax on these large firms, to pay for the restitution of the defects caused by poor development?

Julie James AC: That's obviously out of competence for the Assembly, but I certainly think that something needs to be done, in terms of remedial impact for some of the pieces of work that we've seen. Only today I met with house builders in Wales to discuss a way forward, and to set out our ambition for better homes, better space standards, better carbon design, better community planning, better placemaking, and that was a relatively consensual meeting around what can be achieved if we work together. I would just like to reiterate at this point, Deputy Presiding Officer, that we are very happy to work with all the builders in Wales, as long as they come along this journey with us, so that we get a sense of place and community back into our planning process.
I will say that we are working very hard on our part L of the building regs, which we'll be coming on to in questions later on in this session, so that we can put a regulatory system in place, which will prevent some of these problems from happening. We're particularly concerned where, for example, fire breaks in cavity walls have been left out because of the speed or competence of the construction methodology used. So, we're working very hard to cover off some of those, but that doesn't help the people who are already in that situation. We are also looking very hard at the new homes ombudsman arrangements in England. I don't yet have enough detail to say whether we'll be able to go along with that, but we're very keen on having a system of that sort, so that people have redress if they do find themselves in those very difficult circumstances.

Leanne Wood AC: Okay. Well, I'm encouraged to hear that you're having those conversations, because this isn't just about the past—there are shoddy developments that are getting through planning committees right now as we speak. Just in August, Persimmon received planning permission for a development near the town centre in Bridgend—prime development land. It contained no provision for affordable housing, with, instead, a cash payment equivalent to just £50,000 per affordable house that should have been provided—a development next door to a recently designated air quality management area, with officers acknowledging that the development would make the situation a lot worse. Planning officers insisted that because their local development plan, written in 2013, allocated this land for housing, then that decision overrode the air pollution concerns that weren't known at the time. It took precedence over the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and that, if the committee refused to give permission, the local authority would lose on appeal and have to pay costs. I remember when I was a local authority councillor being threatened with surcharge. Local authority councillors are still being threatened with surcharge, and that is not right. So, can you tell us, with the shoddy developments that are going through planning committees now, what can you do to halt them?

Julie James AC: So, we're very much in the space of encouraging all local authorities with plans that are more than five years old, which that sounds like it is, to be in the review process. The whole purpose of the plan-led process is to keep it up to date, so that, as new developments become apparent—zero-carbon building possibilities, air quality issues and so on—the plan takes those into account. They should be living documents, really.
I cannot comment on the individual application—I don't know enough about it—but we are working across Wales with local planning authorities, and with the Welsh Local Government Association planning spokespeople, and actually with our highways colleagues across Wales, to get a shared vision together of what can be achieved inside the planning process. Leanne Wood will know that we've got the national development framework out for consultation at the moment, and we are working very hard on getting the strategic planning layer in place, so that we have as up-to-date a set of plans as is humanly possible, that have as much democratic accountability inside them as possible. Because she's absolutely right: things change over five years—five years is far too long, in a swiftly moving technology environment, for those kinds of decisions to be made. But I can't make any comment on that particular application I'm afraid.

Mark Isherwood AC: During the Assembly's summer recess, Government Social Research published a report, 'Leadership development and talent management in local authorities in Wales', carried out on behalf of Academi Wales, the public service's leadership and management development organisation, based within Welsh Government. This said that, among the 22 local authorities in Wales, some have established long-standing leadership development programmes, whilst others are unable to resource the investment in training and development, and that little is known about the rationale, design, implementation, or impacts of the programmes, nor is there sufficient information about the links to be made between local authorities with regard to sharing and replicating approaches to leadership development. How, therefore, do you respond to their recommendations, amongst which are that
'Local authorities should consider developing mechanisms to include the voice of the citizen to inform its workforce planning activities. Local authorities, through the provision of Public Service Boards (PSBs) and Local Wellbeing Plans have an opportunity to ensure that the views and long-term aspirations of citizens are included in the development of a future workforce that has the skills and behaviours to meet the demands of the local community',
and also that
'Academi Wales should consider the support it provides to local authorities to monitor, measure and evaluate the collective impact of leadership development'?

Julie James AC: I think it was a very good report, and, in fact, it gives me the opportunity to plug the public services summit that I and the First Minister will be addressing tomorrow, which runs over two days in the Liberty Stadium, down in Swansea, with the exact purpose of spreading good practice far and wide in Wales, along the theme of one public service for Wales. Academi Wales is actually an extremely good organisation, and has been praised, and indeed is praised in that report, for its ability to frame the leadership conversation in local government. We've also been working very hard with the WLGA, and indeed with some Welsh European Funding Office funding that we have, to fund leadership possibilities for third-tier and below officers right across local authorities in Wales, so that they have career-enhancing leadership opportunities. And we're very keen on working up, with Academi Wales, opportunities for secondments—both from the Welsh Government civil service, out into operational departments in local government, and vice versa, so that each has a better understanding of how the other works, with a view to enhancing the leadership aspects of that.
In terms of the public voice, we're very much encouraging local authorities to engage with their public in as wide a series of events as possible, both with a view to enhancing public service provision, but with a view to enhancing the officers of the authorities' understanding of how they deliver public services in their particular area.
I don't know if Mark Isherwood was trying to say that he wanted to advocate this, but, just to be clear, I don't—I don't think one size fits all in Wales. So, I don't think you can say, 'This looks like good leadership—you must do it like this.' I think that's very different, depending on where you are, what your authority looks like, what your local population looks like. But we do work very hard with Academi Wales on spreading good practice, right across Wales, and the next two days down in Swansea is a good example of that.

Mark Isherwood AC: Can I just say, I'm not focused on trying to specify what good leadership looks like, but more how we develop good leadership. And in my professional background, it was a betrayal of people, from the lowest positions to the highest positions, if we didn't have a performance management system in place that was entirely interactive,and which respected people and agreed ways forward, so that they could develop professionally, individually and contribute accordingly.
In developing a similar theme, this week the Auditor General for Wales has produced a report on public services boards, stating they need to start thinking and acting differently and to be given the freedom to work more flexibly. Of course, the boards were set up by the Welsh Government under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to improve the well-being of communities, but he said they're unlikely to realise their potential unless changes are introduced. Again, how would you respond to the recommendations made, which included that the Welsh Government should enable public services boards to develop flexible models of working, including merging, reducing and integrating their work with other forums, such as regional partnership boards, and giving them flexibility to receive, manage and spend grant moneys; improving transparency and accountability by making public services board meetings, agendas, papers and minutes accessible and available to the public; and that public services boards and public bodies should use the findings of an earlier auditor general discussion paper on effective scrutiny to strengthen oversight arrangements in activity? I hope you'll agree with me that this ties in with the first question, because effective management at every level would require this sort of change in management approach.

Julie James AC: Yes, I would entirely agree with you. There was a good report from the auditor on public services boards, and they're relatively new. They are taken into account in the regional working group that the WLGA has, which I mentioned in response to an earlier question. The WLGA is doing some good work alongside its colleagues in health around how we can spread good practice across the public services boards, how we can reduce duplication where there is some with regional partnership boards, and how those two mechanisms can work more effectively together alongside other regional arrangements. It's a piece of work that I hope will be made public towards Christmas of this year, as we come to a conclusion with the WLGA.
But we have been working along the lines suggested in that report for quite some time, and I do agree with Mark Isherwood that there is a dual question there. It's not just about people management—I don't disagree at all with what he said about appraisal systems—it's also about strategic thinking and leadership arrangements that are put in place for those boards. And so, I think this is a good tool in the armoury, if you like, of the improvement of the public services boards, but it is worth remembering that they haven't been there for all that long, and they are still bedding in. We have seen, as the report says, some very good practice across Wales, and it is just a question of how we spread that out.
The Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services and the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government jointly attended a conference, or an all-day engagement exercise anyway, on the way that public services boards and regional partnership boards work together. And there were some good learning and outcomes from that that we're taking forward as well.

Mark Isherwood AC: Well, appraisal systems are meant to be a snapshot as part of a performance management system. There should be no surprises in an appraisal system. No employee at any level should be either criticised or praised for something they weren't already involved with. So, I hope you will develop that into performance management, as opposed to just appraisal systems.
But the upshot of all this was perhaps exemplified by an e-mail sent to Assembly Members and Members of Parliamentcovering or representing Flintshire, in August, from the Flintshire social and healthcare overview and scrutiny committee, after they considered the Welsh Government's continuing healthcare consultations for both children and young people and adults, which is out for consultation. They said that members felt the information and changes detailed in the proposed framework would be detrimental to local authorities across Wales, that the framework is not worded clearly in a fashion that would reduce disputes between health boards and their services, where a number of cases are currently in dispute between the county, and that lack of clarity will further impact on this issue, which will have a considerable impact on staff time and resources. They said the new framework would result in even greater financial pressure, and a number of care packages, currently funded by the local health board or jointly with the local health board, no longer becoming eligible for continuing healthcare funding and becoming the sole responsibility of the health board.
And, finally, they said that the framework continues to be unable to reconcile the use of direct payment, as an individual will not be eligible to use a direct payment to fund primary health needs, leading to a clash in the principle of consistency and control. This goes to the core, not only of local authority working, but of the local partnership boards and the regional partnership boards. And I appreciate you can't comment on the outcome of a consultation, but how will you respond to the wider issues that this particular council committee has evidenced?

Julie James AC: Yes, so, as I say, it's early days for the way that these two boards work together. It's early days for the public services boards. And, obviously, the regional partnership boards are even more recent in their inception. I'm not going to comment on the detail of that. We are aware of different practices across Wales, and one of the things that I said in answering your second point was that we are looking for ways of spreading good practice. So, without commenting on the detail there, it is interesting that, in some areas of Wales, they've not been able to do things via those mechanisms, which, it seems, have been perfectly possible elsewhere in Wales to do. So, we need to do some work with the Welsh Local Government Association, and the two Deputy Ministers have taken forward the work on how those two things hold together. And we will be, of course, taking all the learning from scrutiny committees and scrutiny arrangements from around Wales, to take into account that learning.
There is an issue about spreading good practice in Wales and how slowly good practice has travelled. I do want to commend the WLGA on the work it's been doing over the summer on doing that. And, certainly, I can say, Mark Isherwood, that we will be taking into account the scrutiny findings of all of the committees across Wales in considering how to take those two arrangements forward.

Inspection and Regulation Services

Michelle Brown AC: 3. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the efficacy of local authorities' inspection and regulation services? OAQ54483

Julie James AC: Local authorities are responsible for inspecting and regulating many different services, both devolved and non-devolved. The Welsh Government sets the statutory frameworks for those in devolved areas, and these are periodically reviewed.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Following the recent investigation by the BBC that showed the licensing system isn't working and that dogs are being held in disgusting and cruel conditions, your Government has said it's going to review the rules. If you think that the BBC report makes for distressing viewing, you should see some of the stuff on the C.A.R.I.A.D. campaign website. It's absolutely shocking what these dogs are being put through. That this is still going on in Wales, I'm sure everyone agrees, is absolutely shameful.
Now, the media and some politicians have blamed local authorities and vets for the problems, but we have to remember that those truly responsible for these animals being kept in such poor conditions are the puppy farmers themselves. I appreciate that local authorities are strapped for cash, they have an awful lot of priorities on their plate to deal with. It takes a lot of money and resources to properly run a licensing system and an inspection system. It takes additional money to do unannounced inspections, for instance, which don't seem to be happening. So, do you not agree with me that the best way to cease this regulated suffering is to ban puppy farming altogether? I'm a great believer in 'where there's a will, there's a way', and surely Welsh Government should be working with organisations such as C.A.R.I.A.D. to achieve a form of ban that would be effective. So, for the sake of tackling animal cruelty in Wales, an outright ban, I think, is the only solution. Do you agree with me?

Julie James AC: So, the Minister outlined in her earlier questions a whole range of measures that she has recently announced in this regard, and, of course, we're all deeply disturbed by the accounts of non-compliance in the BBC documentary. It was horrible—absolutely heartbreaking.
My colleague Lesley Griffiths outlined a series of things that she's undertaking in this regard. It is always tempting to think that there's a quick fix for these things, but they always have other consequences, not intended. So, we do need to work through those carefully. I think that Lesley Griffiths has already said in this session, Deputy Presiding Officer, that she will be bringing forward more information to the Senedd as those things work through the system.

Joyce Watson AC: I think everybody was disgusted and dismayed in equal measure by what we saw on our screens last week, but my question is very clear: I'm asking now for a moratorium on any new licences whatsoever to do with puppy farming. Because, in accordance with the replies that I've had from both Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire councils, they are overwhelmed at the moment. If they're overwhelmed at the moment with what they've got, then it's fairly clear to me they don't need any more. I know that there's an application in Ceredigion, and I know that there are 4,500 signatories against that application. I would lend my support to that because we cannot carry on allowing licences or allowing authorities to allow licences when, by their own admission, they are overwhelmed.

Julie James AC: Yes, and, as I said, Lesley Griffiths, in her earlier answers, set out a number of things. I know she's written to the Wales animal health and welfare framework group to accept their offer of help and request an urgent and immediate review of the dog breeding regulations. Perhaps, given the amount of interest across the Chamber, and the cross-portfolio thing—you've just put a written statement out, I know—I would be happy, and I'm sure you'd agree, to broker a meeting between various Assembly Members and us about the way forward across the two portfolios.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Minister, over many years, I've been becoming quite concerned at the number of cases taken by trading standards against our farmers, who end up in court simply for the case to fall. An allegation that a farmer—this is in north Wales—took an unreasonable time to dispose of carcasses was dropped. A case against three farmers and their management of a flock of Welsh mountain sheep went to court and was dropped. And I know of a farmer taken to court for failing to provide fresh golden-coloured straw for bedding. This was unsuccessful in court too. So, unsurprisingly, there is a feeling that local authorities do seem determined to prosecute in the first instance rather than looking to work more constructively.
Only recently, a farmer in my own constituency was taken to court, over many months of an actual agonising decision—and I can see other Members agreeing with me. The court costs were £100,000, and the case was dropped. This situation has to change, as farmers are unfairly crippled by the cost of combating criminal cases. Will you review the efficiency of local authorities and their inspection regimes to look at a way of perhaps looking at a better way of working more co-operatively with farmers, rather than taking farmers to court using taxpayers' money in terms of court expenses paid for by local authorities, and, indeed, leaving our hard-working farmers, at the end of the day, with massive court costs, only for a failed court case?

Julie James AC: Well, I've no idea of the detail of the cases that Janet Finch-Saunders is setting out. If you want to write in, that's fine. But, first of all, trading standards is a non-devolved service provided by our local authorities, and, secondly, it's very difficult to make a general statement about the efficacy or otherwise of a prosecution policy off the back of three cases that I've just heard about. So, if you want to write in and tell me the detail of that, I'm happy to look at it.In general, though, local authorities are very restrained in taking court action because it's a huge use of their resources in constrained circumstances. But I'll be more than happy to look at the specifics of the cases that she raised.

Planning Policy for New Housing

Hefin David AC: 4. How does planning policy for new housing take into account the provisions of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015? OAQ54488

Julie James AC: National planning policy for new housing has been completely revised to reflect the well-being of future generationsAct. 'Planning Policy Wales' puts placemakingat the heart of the planning system and, rather than the building of isolated housing estates, focuses on creating sustainable places that positively contribute towards well-being.

Hefin David AC: In late 2016, Mark Lang made Lansbury Park the subject of a deep place study to try and understand the root causes of the area's relative deprivation. And while there are no easy answers, what resulted was a decision by Caerphilly County Borough Council to adopt a deep place plan to address these multifaceted problems. At Caerphilly public services board's most recent annual conference, held on 5 July, the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales praised the work that's been going on at Lansbury Park and emphasised the importance of maintaining access to natural green spaces for the estate's residents. This was specifically mentioned at that conference. It shouldn't just be for wealthier communities to enjoy those green spaces. Does the Minister agree that building new expensive houses on green spaces near communities—for example, like Lansbury Park—jeopardises this and is a hallmark of unsustainable development, in contradiction of the well-being of future generations Act?

Julie James AC: Yes. Well, as Hefin David knows, I'm unable to comment on the specifics of any given planning application, but, in general, I'm very happy to say that I agree with the future generations commissioner about the importance of access to green space for all our communities, particularly those who have less access, actually. And that very much enhances health and well-being, particularly in deprived areas, and that is currently reflected in planning policy, which needs to be reflected in the decisions of planning committees and in the inspectorate's decisions.

Nick Ramsay AC: Minister, last week, a planning application for 111 new houses in my constituency, which had previously been approved by the local authority before being called in by the Welsh Government, was subsequently rejected by the inspectorate on the grounds of it contravening the well-being of future generations legislation, which Hefin David has just mentioned. It was rejected on the basis that the development would rely too much on cars, totally in keeping with the legislation.
Now, I'm not asking you to comment in any way on this case, because I know that you're going to say that you can't, and I know how these things work. But I will ask a more general question about this legislation and how it interacts with local planning. Given that the well-being of future generations legislation is having an increasing impact on planning in particular, will you consider better guidance to local planning authorities and perhaps training for councillors and officials involved in the planning process, so that they are fully versed in their obligations under the legislation early on in this process and so that all the complexities and associated costs that we see later on with call-ins and referrals—a lot of that—could be avoided because planning authorities would know full well what their obligations were under that future generations legislation at the very start?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm happy to agree with that. Actually, my colleague Ken Skates and I attended a meeting of the housing building federation—I can't remember the exact title; just to confuse poor Ministers, they all have almost identical names—but the housing building federation, only this morning, in which we undertook to work together with the leads for planning and highways in the WLGA to do exactly as Nick Ramsay has just suggested.
So, this is a relatively new planning policy, introduced by my colleague Lesley Griffiths, just as she left that portfolio, inherited by me very happily, and is a step change in the way that we look at planning. I'm delighted to hear it taking effect on the ground, but you're absolutely right that we need to make sure that we have the hearts and minds of all of the people implementing the process, including our builders and developers, on board. And that was the purpose of the meeting this morning that we attended—to make sure that everybody has an unequivocal understanding of where our policy direction lies so that they can be both more effective and efficient in implementing it.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I just wanted to pick up on something that Leanne Wood raised with you earlier, which you didn't directly respond to, so I just wanted to try again and ask for a simple 'yes' or 'no', if possible. I was just wondering whether you could confirm that the well-being of future generations Act should be used as a material consideration by planning committees when making decisions on planning applications, and that local development plans produced prior to this Act shouldn't be given more weight than the requirements of the Act in decisions being made by committees today. 'Yes' or 'no'?

Julie James AC: 'Planning Policy Wales' sets that out. 'Planning Policy Wales' is the extant planning policy for Wales, which is what should be taken into account when planning committees make their decisions. It's pretty straightforward stuff.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Is that a 'yes' or a 'no'?

Julie James AC: Yes.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you. That's all I want.

Julie James AC: I thought I'd said 'yes' to start with. The most recent policy is the one that should be considered.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Okay, thanks.

Julie James AC: Sorry, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Okay. Question 5, David Melding.

Fire Safety Standards

David Melding AC: 5. What is the Welsh Government doing to improve fire safety standards on residential complexes in South Wales Central? OAQ54490

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government is committed to using existing devolved powers to improve fire safety standards in all high-rise residential buildings in Wales, ensuring residents feel safe and secure in their homes. I am working towards a White Paper setting out proposed reforms ahead of new legislation during the next Assembly term.

David Melding AC: Minister, this is very important work. You may know that the fire service has issued enforcement notices at Celestia Homes, where there are deficiencies in external blocking and cladding, the compartmentalisation of these buildings is inadequate, and, as a result, leaseholders are now facing very substantial sums of money to put these things right. This housing was built in 2006, and assurances were given by the developers then, Redrow and Laing O'Rourke, that they were of the highest quality, referring specifically to their fire safety excellence. And now, despite the record profits that Redrow have made recently, they're not giving adequate advice, far less support; they are merely allowing these people to face these very considerable charges themselves. Now, this is not adequate. Clearly, where we are with fire safety has been massively informed by Grenfell, and at the very least we need a partnership with those who built these properties and the current residents, and not just a complete shifting of responsibility onto those who are left living there in inadequate housing.

Julie James AC: Yes, I completely agree with that. Our first priority is the safety of residents and tenants and we've sought assurances, on all of the buildings that we're aware of, that the appropriate interim safety measures are in place immediately, and a clear plan for long-term mitigation is also put in place as soon as possible. We are working in partnership with the relevant local authorities, fire and rescue services, the building owners and the managing agents. As the law currently stands, building safety is the responsibility of building owners and their managing agents, as enforced through the services. Enforcement powers are with the local authorities under the housing Act and the fire and rescue services under the fire safety Order, as I know David Melding already knows. So, we've been consistent in saying exactly what he's just said—that leaseholders and residents should not be expected to pay to rectify issues that constitute a failure to build to appropriate quality standards or where matters are in breach of building regulations. I am doing an oral statement to the Assembly later on this month to go into that in more detail, but broadly I agree with the proposition he puts forward.

The Housing and Health Sectors

Lynne Neagle AC: 6. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services about improving joint working between the housing and health sectors? OAQ54498

Julie James AC: I meet regularly with the Minister for Health and Social Services to discuss housing, health and social care. Joint working between housing and health is essential to delivering 'A Healthier Wales'.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Minister. I'm sure I'm not alone in this Chamber in finding that the constituents who come to see me with housing problems almost invariably have health issues, usually mental health issues as well. It is therefore absolutely vital that health boards proactively work with housing providers to meet the needs of the communities. In my experience, that work can be patchy and is not sufficiently focused on early intervention. Will you discuss this with the health Minister to try to make sure that all health boards are proactively supporting the housing needs of communities?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm very happy to undertake to do that. It's something we do do regularly already. Lynne Neagle will know that we've recently facilitated improved joint working between health and housing by making representatives of the housing sector statutory members of the regional partnership boards. So, that's just gone into effect. It's early days for that but we're working very hard to make sure that that starts to work. And also we have the integrated care fund, which my colleague Rebecca Evans introduced when she was housing Minister, which is now coming into its own, really. We're seeing really innovative proposals coming forward to do exactly that—to take a preventative approach to the housing and health combined needs of the community and to make sure that we have the facilities available to take that forward. But I'm very happy to undertake an ongoing relationship with the health Minister, and, actually, with the Deputy Minister as well. We have discussion about the social care aspects of that on a regular basis.

Thank you. And, finally, question 7, to be answered by the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government. Bethan Sayed.

Appropriate Working Conditions

Bethan Sayed AC: 7. How does the Welsh Government ensure appropriate work conditions in private companies that provide services on behalf of local government? OAQ54471

Hannah Blythyn AC: Fair working practices should be the norm across both the public and private sectors. While local authorities are responsible for their contracts, we have been working with them through the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains and the two-tier code to remove unfair working practices.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you for that reply. As you will know, Neath Port Talbot council—as did many other councils at the time—they spun off their leisure services to Celtic Leisure, and many of us warned at the time that eventually working conditions would spiral because of that. What we've seen recently, therefore, is Celtic Leisure saying that, if people don't agree to changes in their terms and conditions, they will be sacked and re-employed on weaker conditions. Now, this is something that we should all be appalled at and I know that Unison has said that it will take strike action. Neath Port Talbot council gave £1.5 million to Celtic Leisure to prop up their services in the local community. What are you going to do as the Welsh Government to say this is unacceptable, this doesn't go in line with the ethics, and to support the trade union in that particular area?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for her question. I'm aware of this particular—. I'm aware of what you refer to, and my understanding is that the proposal has now been withdrawn and that negotiations are ongoing with the trade unions, and I would encourage those negotiations to continue, particularly with Unison, representing the workforce there. Clearly, as set out within our code of practice on ethical employment, we would expect to level up, not to level down, in these aspects. That is something that, clearly, as chair of the workforce partnership council, I will be discussing in further detail with members there to ensure that we make surethat code of employment is implemented and enforced right across local government, moving forward.

Thank you very much, Deputy Minister.

3. Topical Questions

Item 3 on the agenda this afternoon is topical questions, and two have been selected. The first topical question, to be answered by the Minister for Economy and Transport, is from Dawn Bowden.

Triumph Furniture Ltd in Merthyr Tydfil

Dawn Bowden AC: 1. Will the Minister make a statement regarding the collapse of Triumph Furniture Ltd in Merthyr Tydfil? 349

Ken Skates AC: Yes. This is clearly a deeply disappointing statement and series of events that have led to the company's collapse. Our thoughts are, clearly, with the employees and their families at this difficult time, and we'll seek to work with the administrator to do all we can to minimise the impact on the local community and the wider economy.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. The closure of this company with the loss of 250 jobs is clearly bad news for my constituency, but it's certainly very bad news for those individuals and their families and the local economy of Merthyr Tydfil. Unfortunately, this comes on the back of other job losses, including those at Hoover, and on the proposed move of 250 Department for Work and Pensions jobs out of Merthyr Tydfil. But can I thank your officials for their recent meetings with the company? Clearly, despite attempts at finding a solution, the company's problems were too big to be able to turn around on this occasion.
Clearly, the priority now must be to get as much support as possible in to those people who, I understand, are now dependent on the Redundancy Payments Service for the payment of their redundancy money. So, can you assure me that the Welsh Government and your partners are acting as quickly as possible to assist staff, particularly as I know that some of those redundant workers already live hand to mouth? I know that sounds dramatic, but for many that is actually the reality of their daily lives, even though they are working.
Beyond that, we also need to learn more about the lessons from this situation, so can I ask you to help us to understand the exact causes of the catastrophic collapse in orders since July of this year and to what extent that could have been mitigated? I know my colleague Gerald Jones MP had been in contact with the Department for Work and Pensions regarding the loss of their orders with the company, and it would be good to know why the DWP, apparently without consultation, suspended orders valued at around £400,000 to Triumph Furniture, leaving a big hole in their order book and a major cash-flow problem. Was this linked to a UK Government moratorium on public sector contracts, and, if so, who is taking responsibility for the consequences of that action?
The company have also said that many of their orders from the private sector had dried up because of the uncertainties over Brexit. Do we know how many other companies may face a similar predicament? We must surely look at the whole situation around Brexit and the impact it's having on the general business climate and a reluctance by companies to invest in new equipment and so on. I fear that, with the economy slowing down, we are going to see much more of this as our manufacturing base in the Valleys is hit hard by future uncertainty, so I would welcome a detailed statement from the Government on how it seeks to address this within its economic strategy.
Finally, Minister, can I thank all those many local partners who are now, I know, already working in response to this dreadful situation and trying to help redundant staff? Their efforts are appreciated as we all try our best for these redundant workers in the weeks and months ahead.

Ken Skates AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, can I share Dawn Bowden's thanks to the partners that have been working tirelessly since the announcement was made in supporting the affected workers? Can I also thank Dawn Bowden for recognising the efforts that were made by my officials in trying to save and restructure the company? I really do recognise the closure of Triumph Furniture will have a major impact on the economy of Merthyrand the surrounding area as well.
Now, Dawn Bowden raises a number of important questions, primarily the issue of redundancy payments and how swiftly they can be progressed and processed and also the role that Brexit has played in the company's collapse, as well as other factors, namely the loss of a single major contract. With regard to redundancy payments, I'll be writing to the UK Government's Redundancy Payments Service to ask if claims can be processed in a similarly swift fashion that took placewith regard to Thomas Cook, where employees were given redundancy payments swiftly. I think that from what Dawn Bowden said today, and from what I have also been able to ascertain, many, many employees are living hand to mouth and therefore urgently need support. And I will be writing today regarding that matter.
In terms of Brexit and other factors, well, if we deal with the question of the DWP order first, this is a question that needs to be directed to the UK Government and something that we will certainly be taking up. I know that Members of Parliament, primarily Gerald Jones, are raising this question as well in Westminster. I wish to understand the extent to which the loss of this single major order contributed to the dramatic, swift collapse of the business. But there is no doubt whatsoever that Brexit has continued to play a part. Indeed, in the company's own accounts, continuing uncertainty on Brexit was noted, as was the falling value of the pound. The pound has fallen still further as the likelihood of us crashing out of the European Union increases. So, essentially, the idea of 'get it done' has done in this company. I fear that many other companies will face collapse in a similar vein.
Dawn Bowden asks what assessments and what response the Welsh Government is planning on making towards those businesses that are likely to face very grave difficulties in the coming weeks. Well, I can tell Members today that we've carried out an assessment across all 22 local authority areas of jobs that are considered to be at medium to high risk of loss in the event of us crashing out of Europe. In parts of Wales, the risk is as high as 30 per cent of jobs being categorised as medium to high risk. That is a terrible situation to be in. Therefore, I must stress to Members that no amount of preparation by this Government or by the UK Government will mitigate fully against the consequences of Britain crashing out of the European Union.

Russell George AC: I associate myself with comments that others have made in regard to our thoughts being with those who were employed at Triumph. Can I ask the Minister—? There have been some suggestions that the financial situation has been caused by delays in new Government contracts affecting profit and sales. I would be grateful if you could comment on that. We have seen a string of, unfortunately, companies fold across south Wales in recent months, and I wonder what steps the Welsh Government is taking to improve transport connectivity in order that companies across south Wales can maintain a competitive edge in comparison with competitors in other parts of the country. I wonder what discussions you have also had with colleagues in the Bank of England and the Treasury to take steps—in conjunction, of course, with the Welsh Government—in mitigating the effect of finances on medium and large manufacturing companies.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank Russell George for his comments and his questions? First of all, the media have reported that the collapse of the company was—in part at least, if not largely—due to the loss or the delay in securing Government contracts. That regards the contract, as far as I'm aware, with the Department for Work and Pensions, as the Welsh Government have no contractual relationship with Triumph Furniture. Again, I would stress that these are questions that need to be directed to the UK Government for answer.
Insofar as connectivity is concerned, Dawn Bowden herself chairs a sub-group of the Valleys taskforce, looking at the Heads of the Valleys road and how we can maximise the economic benefits from improved transportation links within the Valleys communities, and I'm sure that Dawn is making good progress in that regard.
And, insofar as finance and rescue and restructuring support is concerned, I have asked the Development Bank of Wales to utilise as much of the funding that it has available to it for that very purpose. But I'd also say, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we now need the UK Government to step forward with hard cash to back up the Kingfisher programme, which is looking at those businesses that are at risk right now and will be at risk as we leave the European Union.

Delyth Jewell AC: Minister, another week, another announcement of hundreds of job losses in the south-east. It was only last month that we were discussing the closure of Orb steelworks in Newport, and, in June, we discussed the closure of Quinn Radiators. Today, with the closure of Triumph Furniture, that brings the total job loss number over just these four months to 912, just from three closures. That isn't normal, Minister, and it shouldn't be happening. I am yet to hear any sort of definitive explanation from the Welsh Government about the common causes behind all of these closures. I know you've spoken today about some of the reasons why you think this company has folded, but it would be good to hear your analysis of the common causes behind all of these closures. In any case, this obviously can't go on.
I was also glad to hear on this occasion that immediate action was taken by the Welsh Government and the UK Government to support the Triumph workers, and I would urge all affected workers to make use of the support that's available to them. But the Welsh Government must now pull out all the stops to prevent further job losses happening as the Christmas period nears, and to put in place an action plan for the south-east industrial economy. Minister, will you therefore commit today to convening an emergency economic summit to analyse what's going wrong with the Welsh Government's industrial strategy, and to identify potential economic weak points so that you can take action to defend workers and to prevent further loss of skills from the south-east economy?

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank the Member for her questions and say that her party has consistently warned of the consequences of Brexit? Those consequences are now coming to pass, and there is a common cause: it is Brexit. That is absolutely and abundantly clear. It is not because of the Welsh Government's industrial strategy; quite the opposite, actually. We've got more than 250,000 businesses in existence in Wales now, a record number of businesses headquartered in Wales, and unemployment is at an all-time low, inactivity likewise. There is significant churn in the economy, but there is a trend right now because of Brexit that jobs, particularly in manufacturing, are being lost, and are at risk of being lost. Therefore, directly to the Member's question, if there is a common cause, that common cause is surely Brexit. There are other factors at play within the economy. Let's be realistic. There are other factors. For example, the transition to automation is causing difficulties for many businesses, which is why we developed the economic action plan and made one of the key calls to action digitisation and automation and artificial intelligence, to make sure businesses are futureproofed. It's why we ensured, through the economic contract, that businesses need to be able to demonstrate they're investing in the skills of their workforce in order to take advantage of industry 4.0 rather than be left behind. So, whilst there are other factors, the Welsh Government is addressing those within the economic action plan. The big challenge that neither the Welsh Government nor the UK Government under any party—let's be realistic; under any party—can fully deal with and mitigate is a 'no deal' Brexit. That would be catastrophic for the country.

David J Rowlands AC: My colleagues and I would like to put on record our sympathy with the 252 employees of Triumph Furniture. It's deeply sad that a family business that has been in existence for over 60 years has ceased trading, and I'd like to compliment Merthyr Tydfil council, who are reportedly working with local employers to host a recruitment day for the workers affected. Such a rapid loss of employment in these numbers can have a real adverse effect on a community, and it is reassuring the council are working proactively to help. With the business losing hundreds of thousands of pounds of profit in public sector sales in recent months, a restructuring or sale of the business would have been essential, and we regret to learn that the attempts to secure additional funding for a restructuring were not successful. It does appear that problems came to light too late for Welsh Government intervention.
We also note that uncertainty around Brexit would have had an effect. We urge our colleagues across the Assembly to make sure that we have a Brexit sooner rather than later so that businesses know their future and can adjust accordingly. Will the Minister confirm that some of the companies that were mentioned earlier with a loss of jobs explicitly said that it was nothing to do with Brexit that caused their collapse? Housing transactions remain stable—[Interruption.] It's a fact that housing transactions remain stable, from the data we have available to us, which would suggest that demand for furniture should also remain stable, but a company that loses contracts worth hundreds of thousands of pounds of profit is always going to face a serious challenge. Triumph did previously enter administration, but at that time were able to be rescued and were able to change their focus. It is deeply unfortunate that the company did not have time to make changes in this instance. Can I ask the Minister to confirm that the usual interventions when a company fails will be put in place in this instance? Again, I would like to finish by saying that the real cost is the human cost to the employees, and I will reiterate that my colleagues and I have the deepest sympathy with the 252 workers affected.

Ken Skates AC: There will be severe problems for many of the families, I’m in no doubt, as a result of the announcement as a result of the collapse of the company, but we stand ready to help every single one of those employees and every family that is affected by the announcement. I can assure the Member that our ReAct programme will be deployed, and it has a strong record of supporting individuals that are impacted by job losses, not just in terms of finding work, but also in terms of support for their emotional integrity and their family well-being as well. Jobcentre Plus and Careers Wales will both be at hand to assist people who are made redundant as a consequence of the collapse.
I met with social partners on the EU exit working group earlier this week—representative bodies from employers, trade unions and the third sector. We discussed at length the current problems that many businesses face because of Brexit, and the unanimous view was that, whilst uncertainty was indeed causing great difficulty for many employers, we should in no way end that uncertainty if it means driving off a cliff edge. And instead, those social partners on the EU exit working group warmly welcomed the clarity that this Welsh Government has given in saying that we would fight to remain in the EU if we were offered a second referendum.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Minister, I heard all my colleagues who put the question—virtually, my speech is there. News that 252 jobs have been lost by Triumph Furniture in Merthyr Tydfil is a devastating blow to the workers and their families. My thoughts go out to them at this difficult time. Triumph Furniture provided highly skilled jobs and exported their produce around the world, not only Europe. It is a real loss to Merthyr Tydfil, which was recently ranked near the bottom of the league table ranking for economic competitiveness in the United Kingdom. I know the Department for Work and Pensions has said that the Jobcentre Plus rapid response service will be working alongside the Welsh Government, Careers Wales and local employers to provide tailored support. So, can I ask what assistance you will provide to these workers so they can seek new employment? And can you also confirm that prompt action will be taken to help those affected today so that their skills and talents are not lost, but can be redirected to contribute to growing the economy of Merthyr Tydfil? Minister, you’ve been saying Brexit is the main cause of this. This company has been trading since 1946, and all over the world it’s got a name. We have to protect our brand—UK brand and UK produced. Have you put any strategy in place for other companies in Wales, not to face the similar fate that this company is facing at the moment? At least we should be prepared, because the people of Wales have voted Brexit and we must make sure that these companies are protected by law in this Chamber and by the British Government. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: No amount of protection will prevent every single business in Wales from being burned in a ‘no deal’ Brexit. Businesses will suffer. Anybody in industry will tell you that a ‘no deal’ Brexit is dangerous for our economy. We will do our upmost to protect workers during the coming months. We are ready to deploy more than 500 people across the Development Bank of Wales, Welsh Government and Business Wales to assist businesses. But the danger of a ‘no deal’ Brexit is real and will impact on every single community across Wales and across the United Kingdom. And I must say that when we talk about economic competitiveness, our competitiveness will not be improved through a race to the bottom in terms of labour costs. Competitiveness will be improved as a consequence of investing in higher skilled jobs, in the development of systems that enable us to compete more competitively in the age of automation. That is precisely where we are going to be focusing our investment.

Thank you. The second topical question this afternoon is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Marco Cable Management

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 2. Will the Minister make a statement on the announcement by Marco Cable Management that they are to close their site on Anglesey? 347

Ken Skates AC: Our deepest sympathies go to everybody affected by this worrying news. This is a deeply uncertain time for the workers at Marco Cable, for their families and, I think, also for the wider Anglesey community, but we will work closely with everybody concerned during the consultation period to explore every available option to assist and support people.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. I was genuinely disappointed from hearing this news. We’re talking about good jobs with a company that we thought had a sustainable presence in Llangefni, and not much time has passed since I was discussing with Marco the possibility of expansion. Now, we’re talking about the loss of jobs, and I think more than anything today we’re thinking about the 40 staff who are facing job losses and their families. Even though mention has been made about this site in West Bromwich offering jobs, (1) not many will be able to or will desire to move and (2) we don’t want people to have to leave their communities. So, we’re asking for certainty on several levels: first of all, that everything is done to try to support the company in changing its mind; that every support is given to managers who would want to take the business forward in their own way; that everything is done to help those who lost their jobs to find new positions; and that all effort will be made to ensure the best use of the site for economic activity as a matter of urgency.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: This was a company that was rooted on Anglesey. It was established in 2003 in Llangefni and later became a part of the Atco International group. Such a common story—and isn't this yet another example of what happens when indigenous companies sell up to companies that have no real attachment, then, to a community? There's also the inherent threat of being at the mercy of external investors—something that can be so valuable, of course, to the Welsh economy, but it leaves us very vulnerable. We saw with Rehau in Amlwch, didn't we, recently, another company that had been a very, very good employer locally deciding to pull out at a whim. Now, this vulnerability is something that should be of huge concern to us. We've had announcement after announcement after announcement of major job losses, not just on Anglesey, but throughout Wales. Please, Minister, tell us what the Government is planning to do to stem this flow.

Ken Skates AC: The Member raises a series of important points and questions. On the last point that he raised, I think it's worth recognising that, whilst we have lost many jobs in recent times, we have also led to the creation of many jobs as well. And it is deeply, deeply disappointing that Marco have decided to consult on closure, but the Welsh Government has invested in new businesses and existing businesses that have helped to drive down economic inactivity to the average that the UK stands at, which is unprecedented. We've been able to create a record number of jobs in our country as well. Therefore, whilst I would say that the loss of 40 jobs is incredibly, incredibly damaging for the community, we have that track record of creating alternative employment and we will deploy all of our resources to the area, to the community, to ensure that alternative employment there is secured. However, I would share and echo the Member's point that very few of the people who could be affected—and I will say 'could be affected'—by the closure will likely choose to move to West Bromwich, nor should they have to. It's always been my view that you shouldn't have to move out of your community if you're striving to move up in the world. Therefore, we'll be working with the local authority and with other stakeholders to identify other opportunities. We will be deploying the usual and successful methods of supporting individuals, with the help of Careers Wales and Jobcentre Plus.
Until the announcement, as the Member rightly identified, we had been supporting Marco for some time with plans to expand and extend their current premises, which are owned by us, the Welsh Government, so this news was a surprise and was in no way expected. But I'm pleased to say that my officials are moving quickly to respond to this news. Just this morning, my officials met with the vice president for HR of the company, along with the representative of the Isle of Anglesey County Council. My officials have also made the Department for Work and Pensions aware of the situation. They've been informed of the development, and our understanding is that the DWP had not themselves been formally notified by the company. I can assure the Member that we will be opposing the closure of the business, but we will prepare for the worst nonetheless. We have until March 2020 to identify alternative opportunities for the 40 individuals that could be affected by this announcement, but our hope is that we would still be able to turn around the fortunes of the company and to keep it on Anglesey.

Thank you very much, Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

Item 4 are the 90-second statements, and the first of the three this afternoon is Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The state of nature report gives the clearest picture to date of the states of species across land and sea, and it sounds the alarm for the natural world. One in six species in Wales risk extinction. Butterfly numbers have fallen 52 per cent since 1976, and across the UK there are 40 million fewer birds compared to 50 years ago. Thirty per cent of land-dwelling mammals are at risk of disappearing altogether, and as the Assembly's lapwing champion, I'm devastated that breeding populations have fallen from 14,000 pairs in 1970 to just 700 today. And, across the world, biodiversity is under increasing threat. The Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services report in May warned that 1 million species globally are at risk of extinction.
But it's not all doom and gloom. When we invest in land, in nature, it can flourish. Conservation success stories are in the report. Species like bitterns and large blue butterflies have been saved through concerted action. But time is short. The chair of IPBES has warned that the window for action to restore ecosystems is expected to close over the next decade. So, we need to strengthen protection of our natural world, undertake species recovery projects, ensure our best sites are well managed, improve environmental standards, and ensure future land management payments drive ecological recovery and more. There's a growing movement demanding this change, and as policy makers, it falls to us to enable the recovery of species and tackle the climate emergency. And the time to act, as the report says, is now.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Tomorrow is World Mental Health Day. Across our country, and across the world, people’s mental well-being is deteriorating. That includes those who, in theory, are amongst the more advantaged, namely our students. All Assembly Members bar one have signed the student mental health pledge, supported by Time to Change and Mind Cymru. It is our duty to ensure that those starting the most exciting, but the most stressful time of their lives have the mental health protection they need and are not deterred from seeking help because of the stigma attached to mental illness.
The 500 per cent increase in the number of first-year students disclosing mental health conditions is alarming. Our universities and colleges have instituted a wide range of student support services, frequently delivered by their commendable peers. The loneliness of being away from home for the first time can be overwhelming, the expectation of making new friends too daunting. More seriously, if they are being bullied or blackmailed, there is specialist help available.
The revenge porn helpline highlights that criminals are targeting freshers, who spike their drinks and then use compromising photos to blackmail them. It is essential that people are not too embarrassed to seek help. Paying the ransom blackmailers demand is not a solution. At the most serious end of the problem, student suicide can only be combated by specialist health services working closely with universities and colleges.

Thank you very much. And, then, finally, Jack Sargeant.

Jack Sargeant AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. As my colleague Jenny Rathbone said, tomorrow is World Mental Health Day, and I'd like to put on record my thanks for the superb work your office is doing around that. Last week, the charity Samaritans hosted a breakfast briefing and I thank my colleague from across the benches, Dai Lloyd, for supporting that. The theme is suicide prevention this year, and the findings from that briefing were very clear. There has been a significant increase in suicides across the UK. Suicide rates across the UK in young people have been increasing as well. The suicide rates for young females is now at its highest rate ever on record, and across the UK men still remain three times more likely to take their own lives than women.
I recently worked with Cardiff City FC, Swansea City AFC, Wrexham AFC, and Newport County AFC on this issue of suicide prevention, and to raise awareness of the 84 men who commit suicide every week. Now, since then, and based on the 5,185 men who commit suicide every year, as outlined in the report, that figure has now increased to almost 100 men a week. I know, from a personal experience, the impact of suicide, and I know what impact it has on family members and friends and communities. So that's why, tomorrow, I'll be thinking about everyone affected, and that's why I'll continue to work for better mental health support for all. After all, the levels of support we offer should never end. It's a matter of humanity; it's a responsibility for us all. Diolch.

Thank you very much. And that brings today's Plenary proceedings to a close.
So we'll now proceed to have a break, before the Committee of the Whole Assembly meets to consider Stage 2 of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill. The bell will be rung five minutes before we reconvene, but I would urge Members to be in the Chamber as I intend to start Stage 2 at 3.45 p.m. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 15:36.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Housing and Local Government

Suzy Davies: What discussions has the Minister held in light of the written statement issued on 19 September 2019 on building safety?

Julie James: My officials and I continue to work with those responsible for the safety of individual buildings in Wales, including local authorities, fire and rescue services, landlords, managing agents and the developers and construction companies responsible for building the homes where defects have been found following formal inspections.

John Griffiths: What steps is the Welsh Government taking to support non-statutory services run by local authorities?

Julie James: Local authority services play an essential role in the lives of the people of Wales. The Welsh Government continues to protect funding for our local authorities so authorities can continue to provide these vital services, both statutory and non-statutory. Local service delivery, however, is for local determination.

Russell George: Will the Minister make a statement on the National Infrastructure Commission?

Julie James: The National Infrastructure Commission for Wales will publish its first annual report next month, as intended.

Andrew R.T. Davies: Will the Minister make a statement on the potential reinstatement of paragraph 6.2 of Technical Advice Note 1 following its temporary dis-application?

Julie James: In response to our call for evidence on the delivery of housing through the planning system, I have today published a consultation on proposed changes to 'Planning Policy Wales' and associated advice and guidance. This includes the proposed revocation of technical advice note 1, including paragraph 6.2.

Joyce Watson: What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure adequate inspection of licensing services provided by local authorities?

Julie James: Local authorities are autonomous organisations, responsible and accountable for the licensing services they provide, and ensuring those services are appropriate to the communities they serve.

Questions to the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs

Mike Hedges: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's tree-planting policy?

Lesley Griffiths: The Welsh Government’s policy document 'Woodlands for Wales' strategy outlines our commitment to bring more Welsh woodland into management. An additional £2 million has been given to the current round of Glastir woodland creation scheme and we are developing a national forest programme to increase woodland planting and management in Wales.

Angela Burns: Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government's plans to tackle illegal dog breeding sites in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths: I have committed to reviewing the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014. This will include full consideration of any barriers to enforcement. In addition, we will help educate the public on how to purchase their pets responsibly and how to report suspicious activity to their local authority.